The Wealth Chef on curiosity, finance and her forever search for freedom, meet Ann Wilson


I have a fantastic treat for you.


In this episode, I'm chatting with the amazing Ann Wilson otherwise known as The Wealth Chef.


She's an incredibly accomplished author, published by Hay House, an enormously successful online business that has taught thousands and thousands and thousands of students around the world how to build assets, and manage their personal finance, and perhaps most significantly, has been financially free for the past 15 years.


That means she doesn't have to work if she doesn't want to because she is able to live off of the income that her assets have generated for her and while Ann is used to spending most of her time talking about finance.


That's not what I'm talking about with Ann today in our conversation, which I invite you to sit back and enjoy, we are learning from Ann about how it that she's managed to build a life that is so different than that traffic and TV norm, the decisions she's made, the sliding door moments, the difficult things she's had to cut out to be able to craft a life where she is truly living by her greatest curiosity and how that shows up for her.


So please enjoy Anns behind the scenes secrets on how to truly live differently.


Want more of Ann?


You can join her amazing world and learn from her by joining her free world-class training by clicking here.


I personally am a student of Ann's, and she's changed my life and financial world.


I highly recommend you consume every piece of training she's ever made and implement it like you're running out of time ('cause, you are!).


I am a proud affiliate of Ann's.


Prefer to watch?





curiosity, life, energy, freedom, curious, desire, deep, threads, depleting, slow, people, experiment, deeply, lifeforce, service, money, energizing, feel, trust, eros



Tamryn Sherriffs, Ann Wilson


Tamryn Sherriffs  00:02

Hello, the wonderful Ann Wilson, what a fantastic treat to have you here. Welcome.


Ann Wilson  00:11

 Well this is always such a joy to talk live and differently and juiciness with the amazing Tamryn Sherriffs I feel so excited about today I feel privileged to be here and I can't wait to dive into all things juicy living.


Tamryn Sherriffs  00:27

Absolutely I mean over you know I've been in your community for a few years and I've come to know you and spend time with you and I've been dying to have this conversation where you're speaking differently for ages I'm super super excited to jump in for those who haven't met Ann because I'm often shouting from the rooftops to the differently community about you if you haven't met Ann she is, otherwise known as the wealth chef and has an international community where she teaches about Financial Intelligence and How to Build your freedom through through assets in an absolute nutshell. And you can certainly tell us more more about that. But what I'm really curious to explore today is how the hell it is that you came to live life so differently then is what I call the traffic and TV norm, you know.


Ann Wilson  01:22

Im loving he traffic and TV norm, talk about the traffic and TV norm, the devastation and destruction of life of the traffic and TV norm.


Tamryn Sherriffs  01:31

Absolutely. I mean, anybody looking at your life from the outside is like, okay, I saw she made a post on Instagram a few days ago with all about her boots, which had been up mountains and we're going to do some anti poaching and and most significantly, you've got the freedom to do that because you've been financially free, meaning not having to trade away your time for money or work even if you don't want to for over a decade.


Ann Wilson  02:00

Yes it is my fifteenth year. It's 15 in August.


Tamryn Sherriffs  02:01

A decade and a half wich is truly amazing. I mean, that's a really I just want to stop and appreciate that. Maybe somebody listening who doesn't even have a concept of what that means because it's so unusual.


Ann Wilson  02:15

Yeah, but it is, it's different, it's radical, just to, and there is a deep, deep subversiveness almost in freedom, whatever we want to talk about, there is a subversiveness that for 15 years, I've had the freedom of choice. Enough, and we can collapse it on that, you know, but yeah, we'll riff on that too.


Tamryn Sherriffs  02:33

Or go to that. So I but what that means just in case, that's the first time you've ever heard that term, is that Ann has built a portfolio of assets in her life, that she doesn't have to work if she doesn't want to. Now that's not to say Ann doesn't work. In fact, she probably is more productive in terms of impact and output, then anyone I've ever met, but that's not the point. So that's a great starting point for us to explore how you're living your life differently if you want to just start off with how the hell that came to be, how did you even make that choice?


Ann Wilson  03:08

And I so love this question. As I was thinking about this conversation and coming We've had a few discussions time over differently. I think one of the most core threads if I go right through what has been that golden thread that has, that I've connected into, which has brought me to this place, and I think will keep expanding for me, a life that is very different, but it's fundamentally free and there's a deep liberation in freedom of choice, and, and expression, but there's too real I guess it's a woven thread, it's a cable, I realized that Curiosity has been a much higher value for me than certainty. Well and the more I've dropped into feeling safe, to be curious and let go of any kind of illusion of any certainty. The richer and richer and wealthier and wealthier My life has become and allowed me to strip away stuff that doesn't serve costs expenses and getting really clear on what is it that my life is wanting to experience. And I think each of us have that unique side. So we so I think the whole point of differently the whole point of freedom is, and I use the word subversive, it's radical, because it requires us to actually challenge that traffic and TV, the story that we've been told of what was so much about education so much what we're indoctrinated in is how to be safe and have certainty in life. And both of them are a devastating lie there is no safety in life. Let's just let's just face he facts. Let's face it, fact that life is a fatal sexually transmitted disease. And so when we can accept that it's gonna be it's gonna be over. There's no way you could make it certain. We can, you know, shift and and then go okay, if I can let go certainty and we can drive deeper what what does that mean this is not about going oh well I just go live forward you know I might get run over by a bus tomorrow so let me just do whatever I want to do. That's not a law. But there's three this first thing has been curiosity first and this has been the thread through go What am I being drawn to what am i curious? And do I have the courage to just take one more step into it. And so whilst in the well show for talking about my financial freedom and investing underneath it has been this deep curiosity to go I want to experience life and why Is that and how do I? So the questions that have come have been, how do I make that happen? How do I go and live at places all over the world? How do I experience the wonder in life that I'm drawn to be curious about wanting to save a life? We mentioned briefly we'll come back to it. Yeah, I do have a Porsche on foot for gluttony, which will go to that wanting to go, wow, there's this one, like, how do I experience it? How do I taste it? Feel it? Owe, into that? And asking that question. So being curious about what I'm drawn to and then asking questions of how instead of dropping into Well, I shouldn't I couldn't, I can't afford it. asking how could I have been the more powerful questions and then from that, it's been going okay, now there's desire now there's curiosity, but then really appreciating the other side of that journey. That dream so a lot of people go, Oh, just manifest want this, you know, dream it, shove it on your vision board and let it pop off. No, you know, life needs us to participate. And everything has to contribute in a way. So they are these resources of our energy, our time and our money that already the only three things we have to follow the thread of curiosity. Those are the three fields. And so we have to get good at those. And so it was from that that I suddenly went Hang on. I want to be able to follow my curiosity I want to, I want to bluttenly gobble up life and feel it. And yeah, in order to do that, then I need to know how to bring have resources, money, time and energy. And then that curiosity said and stuck in the traffic and TV spot. I go Which I was, that's when I was indoctrinated, get a good job work hard, and maybe someday you could do it. I was like, I watch it. There's something wrong with this formula here, because I'm never going to be able to follow that curiosity if I do that. So it was making that curiosity. More important, it led me to better questions that led me to go, okay, and the low was, I need these things in place. So let me do these things in service and shifting around because I think most people go, let me work for the money let me you know, get fit almost as ends in themselves, rather than going. These are meant to be in service of my life of me of my curiosity of my lived experience. So I think that's been one of the key threads for me.


Tamryn Sherriffs  08:49

There's so many things you've said that I want to unpack but the one that stands out the most for me is this level of practicality about the approach and I wonder if that isn't a really essential difference between somebody who has a dream has a vision board, like you said, it's really out there right now in the space where that's what you're getting told to do. But what you've just described to me is sort of reversing from that and going okay, great. So this is what I'm curious about and obviously being really honest about that. Really accepting of whatever your own curiosity is because somebody it's different for everyone, right? It's not Yes. It's wondering.


Ann Wilson  09:36

Yeah, and to also trust that to not go Oh, should I should I should be curious about these things because this is what magazines or society have told me of good things the right thing. If you're deeply curious about this, it's your I think when we can really accept that we all freaks Oh, I thought I could park the fear found out.


Tamryn Sherriffs  10:02

Yes, sure. Because the traffic and TV, a phrase that I use, for me talks about the idea of having to have a big house that you live in, and a fancy car that you're going to pay off and then lose a lot of money on and be at the office until evening. You know, there's all these markers, if you're trying to create this idea of a life that maybe you aren't even curious about. And I think that was a very important point. But you might be curious about this, if you can live in a tiny house. What you might be curious about is if you can be nomadic. Yes. And being honest about that, so important.


Ann Wilson  10:43

And I love what you spoke about that practicality with it. So I think the first thing, big thing when I was doing is curiosity, but then a practice that I really had to curate and I've got better and better at because I have a huge value for freedom. So freedom for me. is being able to live life fully on my terms no matter the cost. So being prepared to pay the cost of what it means, but I've got to get rid of clear of what is life on my terms. But add to that to also drop down in the humility to go It is a moment by moment, day by day, week by week lived experience, that my curiosity today might be. Let's see what it is feels like delivers in a tiny house. But that might not be my curiosity next week. And to summarize it, oh, but and you're all into this, this and this. And now you're into that, that that you know, and there's this judgment that somehow we're meant to there's this one committed path, no your purpose, go off and do that. No, that's deeply shaming, we are allowed to change. So when I've also gone up, so I would notice myself getting stuck into paralysis. is run making choices and decisions and wanting to follow curiosity as I go. What What if that, isn't it? And then I realized there is no it there is no there. Nothing is forever when we truly drop into everything dies including our curiosity, not that we might be interested in something for three weeks, three years, 10 years, whatever, let go, you know where the Curiosity is gone, it's gone. Let it go. So that has given me a huge freedom. So shorten the timeframe. And then that could be a practicality of this is for now. But there's some things underlying and that this comes back to I've really got clear on lived experience. What am I curious about experiencing so what does that feeling where's that curiosity taking me rather than the things I want to explore that so there's a tiny house what is it that I wanting to experience behind that also let go of the it's got to come in the blue paper packets. With the polka dots on that side, it's that and then so what what what is that lived experience? And then which are the elements that I'm service of life? Because the things like my health, my wealth, my money, my time, those almost enablers, so they constant. I can't just be curious about those on and off. Right? So those are like the consistent threads, but the lived experiences can be so varied. And that's what he was and how do you go from being a building railways to be an international speaker to do a TV show to have your best selling books to our huge digital business? And I'll go Okay, the truth is of just pure and not a single one of those things. So I don't do all the talking where to cut back in so I think the second part was differentiating between what are almost the riverbanks what are the enablers that I need? have consistently in my life and those I have rituals and habits and consistency around them. And there's almost a boringness around them. But because I deeply know that without those I can't be curious. I can't have the energy I can't respond to life sad, but the rest of the thing that I'm curious about how I approached them as experiments rather than things that define me so takes us energy away from them that good bad worthiness success. They just what I want to explore right now, you know, you mean you live a portfolio life like that. And I think, you know, I'd love to know your How do you approach those things? And for me about letting go of any story of forever has been deeply liberating.


Tamryn Sherriffs  14:56

I will absolutely but for me, it was always that way. I was certain Certainly spent probably the first decade of adulthood thinking there was something wrong with that big No. And, you know, I love that you mentioned that you can kind of let go of the expectation of what others think your life should be like and that you're supposed to stick with something I kind of get like a picture of sort of what you've told in school, when you take piano lessons, and you've got a sudden, you know, you've got to go every day. And when you start hating it, it doesn't matter. And yeah, you've got to become expert. And I think part of part of how we are raised and what we're taught in our culture sets us up to think that if we want to, if we lose our curiosity and something we've somehow failed, you know, you mentioned the oldest important language around there. And I definitely had that experience until I realized, actually this is a this is more of a superpower. It's not a failure. And I think that's an incredibly important realization for people to have is that is there Something's off for two weeks. And something's off for two years, except for the very important distinction you just made here. And I think somebody could have easily just not even heard that as clearly as it needs to be expressed. There are some things I think you said in support of life that you can't lose your curiosity on. And practical practicality points. Because the How to have more freedom, and I've heard you use this, it's almost sounds like a paradox before but in order to be relaxed and free, you have to have some structure in place.


Ann Wilson  16:36

Yeah. Yeah. often they'll say those frameworks create freedom. And then once these frameworks like that root system, it's that trunk of the tree, that in allows life to flow because without that strong root system that can come constantly bring the energy and the life force that that tree needs. There is no canopy, there is no blossom. There are no flowers. And so for me, I'm really clear that my money, so having a base a strong root system of assets, so assets, not actually money assets that could earn me the money and growing it and bringing it to me mechanisms to maintain and look after my energy. So, and I use the word energy rather than health. So it's a broad aside so I can be present with life. And then my time and these are my three core frameworks of life, that I must have practices run and, and and what's great about those, they then provide, I guess, the riverbanks practicality for my life to flow. But most people have it the wrong way told us the other way around. We work for money, and then becomes a lifeless becomes in service of money or for many people, their life force becomes in service of the It says the perfect body because then they'll be loved you know, because then if they've got a body that looks like this, then they'll fit in. Okay? It's not that I don't care what my body looks like, but I'm, but I've got clearer of age. And of course, I've dropped into that we all get bombarded by life's messages and not life. Life doesn't give a shit, social societies, media messages and magazines of, you know what we need to look like what we need to do, how we need to fit in order to be loved and worthy, and all of that kind of external validation. But the more and more I've got, hey, I want your I enjoy feeling fit. And the more I've got curious about the experiment of how does that make me feel and how does that enable me to pick up in life, I've then been able to make choices about my diet and stuff. Not because my body wants to look x, y, and Zed Oh, because it's the latest trend to you know, eat whatever. because it lets me be more curious. And it lets me follow that curiosity. So because a lot of people think, you know, being good with money working harder is a is an end in itself. And it's not. I don't, I'm not great with my money, any invest in it because that brings me joy because a paradox, the better I've got at it, like anything when you develop a skill at it, it doesn't stop bringing joy in and of itself of that activity. I enjoy investing now because I've got better at it and I see the results. But still at its core, I don't invest just for the sake of investing. I invest in order to be able to contribute to anti poaching units to be able to have a beautiful place in the bush to be able to travel to be able to be free of anxiety and worry so more that energy can be used in whatever I'm curious about next. And that It all makes all the difference because I think when we clear about that it also helps us do the boring shit. Because I want you to also think there's a sap and this links together when you spoke about. It's absolutely okay for us to change our mind. follow a thread of curiosity get so hung up. Actually, no, whoo, this is now interesting. I'm going to follow that. There's a subtlety there because sometimes our curiosity will deeply lead us to a place where we're going to then hit resistance, we're going to hit that missing middle, we're going to hit that I don't know what the hell's going on here. And then there's a different set of skills that has to this fine discernment to go Am I I'm opting out because I'm responding to my nervous systems. fear of rejection of not being good enough perfectionism inside and so am I going to use this as an excuse? Don't worry, you don't have to continue with it. But if can we slow down enough to go No, I'm still deeply careers him. There's a force, my life force, my heart, whatever you want to call. It is still being and then we have to be in service of that we have to dig deep. And that's where again, discipline and stuff comes through to go. I am still going to keep pursuing this. And so I think there's another thread there that we see a lot of in the personal development world. We talk about flow and let it be easy. And that I'm gonna have it ever. That's bullshit.


Tamryn Sherriffs  21:27

Yeah, there's there's definitely a push through.


Ann Wilson  21:33

But is it in service of our truth? Or are we pushing through for some external validation to prove our worthiness and that for me, it's always and I'm getting better and better at slowing down enough. I could talk for so long I'm not giving you a word and age.


Tamryn Sherriffs  21:55

Please go. I think that's so important and to be able to assess between which one What's the metric? Why am I pushing through on this? This, I want to just circle back to the three things that you mentioned that are central for you. And obviously one was your your wealth. And if anybody who's listening here and has an enormous body of work around this, and I'll make sure in the show notes, there's a link to for you to be able to find her and jump into all of the content that he teaches. so skillfully and brilliantly around how you can how you can do the same for yourself. And then you talked about your energy preserving your energy, that was the second thing you you mentioned, and and you talked about rituals and tactics, and we essentially started talking about one now is knowing, constantly having to know why am I pushing through on this? I'd love to dive into that aspect. The maybe the lesser known side of an because a lot of your work is helping people understand assets, but you have To preserve, you've got an incredible amount of energy. I've been to events. I've seen you on stage. I think people know you for being really energetic. And I know that's not by accident. Maybe it's a bit of personality. So I'd love to hear about that second pillar you mentioned, what do you do to preserve that energy that you talked about?


Ann Wilson  23:21

And I think absolutely, I think there is I'm just deeply grateful that there is an element of maybe my body type, my personality, that there has always been quite a strong call thread of just lifeforce energy exuberance. coopera, but as I've gotten older has become more of an awareness around that. And so I think the first I've, the experimentation that I speak to, I know that when I tap in and follow the things that I'm curious about And then I'm pulling to more energy comes, when I start pushing and doing more of, I should do this. That's the path I should follow. My batteries drain much quicker. So that sounds a little bit woowoo. But there's a part of my body and I'm talking about physical energy. I'm literally just at this generative ability to keep going. These two edges where I work, so let me give you an example. And trusting these sides. So I have a digital business. I do lawn chairs, I teach people investing and money management through digital platforms. And one of the mechanisms I do is annually I do a big launch, where I do a sequences of videos which are usually highly curated a video that will prepare franticness this whole process and I was meant to be doing Coming into doing this and I could just feel a lot of shooting in my head okay well this is the way I do it I always do it this way I should do this but there was just a heaviness around it and then the judge in me will come Come on and push through or do this and I have to let go so so there's one when I push when the judges starts driving the bus I know that my my battery's going to get right to it but the judge often does get the driving seat but I have like okay, so there's lots of compassion work as to go with it as well you know, it's there's also this beautiful compassion that we have in life there is no there we don't fully become perfect. I think we just get better at tuning and noticing and so I could feel the side and I could feel this heaviness this draining of energy of not wanting to do it with this I should say and then I went, Okay what what is giving me and that you want and I was doing live stuff like this. COVID jumped on. And every time I did that, boom, this energy was coming up and I was going, I would feel enlivened by the end of out I would do a three hour session standing. Curious, hmm, notice that and then when, okay, that's giving me energy. And there's this thing that I should be doing and want to be doing, but right now feeling very depleted. So how can I still do it, but do it in a way that is energizing for me not depleting. So I think it comes back to that question slowing down. So there's another aspect that irony slowing down the nervous system, not the pace, slowing down to go. Let's see what's going on underneath and not going I could have easily gone Oh, well, I'm just not going to do the not all this but say how do I make an and? How do I do it in a way that is energizing brings me joy. And then, and then that is a better set of questions. So I ended up doing the whole launch as a live delivered experience and loved it energized and it was super successful. And so this energy piece also threads through the curiosity of said, well, that's what I'm curious about. But how do I do it in a way that's energizing brings me joy and is going to be in service of me. So finance is not going to deplete me it's not going to defeat me financially. It's not going to deplete me energetically. How can I actually make it work for me in in that way, if I'm, I loved traveling, and I worked as an engineer and so through curiosity, I chose to work on big projects, and let go of the certainty because that enabled me to live in six countries, six, five continents, six countries. But it wasn't like but I said and and I want to be able to do it financially. And So there's a series of ads slowing down enough but so the energy side of just noticing what depletes and drains me is one, and then this experimentation. And so also as I've got older, I'm not buying into the story of when you get a little bit, I've noticed that this sort of thing. So for example, I don't I barely drink alcohol anymore. And this is not because I'm anti alcohol, people shouldn't drink alcohol. This is again, coming back to this deep what's in service of my life? I don't. It's not that I don't give a damn what somebody else does. But it's not my business. My business is me. And I don't not drink alcohol because some book told me not to drink alcohol. It's because I started noticing that my sleep was being affected by it, that my energy, so if I was slow enough to go, hang on, I'm not being able to participate fully in life when I do this, so against Following notice the experiment, get the data back.


Tamryn Sherriffs  29:06

And act in a practical way.


Ann Wilson  29:08

But yeah, I just need to know. I'm also good. And there's not an outbreak of this for everything. I don't want to go. Okay, no, I'm a non drinker for the rest of my life. I'm going right now. I noticed a few weeks ago, I had a glass of champagne and it was brands and it felt great. And the next day I could feel it in my body. And there we go. My experiment is still telling.


Tamryn Sherriffs  29:33

Same result. You know, what's fascinating is that what you've just said about how you how you make your decisions based on your your energy or what are asked you, where do you get your energy from? You said, You know what, it's actually it's a little bit the other way around. It's what I do either energizes me or depletes me. And the very first thought I had was, wow, we're actually talking about the same thing as we opened. Because for anybody Listening might say, you know what, people don't have the luxury of just deciding if they're going to do something or not. Because you either have to go to work or you don't. You have to do this task where you don't because of your responsibilities, but the reality is to be able to have the freedom to actually pay attention to what energizes you or not is available, if you prepared to put the practical steps in place. Yeah, because I have a very similar experience to you. I can tell very quickly if I notice, I'm like procrastinating on something. I don't want to read a thing. I don't want to do a thing. I know there's something that it's, it's not for me, I need to make a shift. I have to have the courage to say no, I can't do that. I'm not doing that. Or I've changed my mind all the things that you've talked about. But you can only be operating in that space. If you've had the initial courage to begin to design your life like that in the first place.


Ann Wilson  30:58

Yeah, to be curious. about ourselves.


Tamryn Sherriffs  31:03

Right back to the very first point. And I think that's very important because if you look at what a lot of people are experiencing, where you know that people talk about mental health, they talk about depression rates, they talk about suicide rates, there's a lot of suffering and pain that people are experiencing even silently, because their energy is depleted. Yeah, probably. I mean, that's, that's a hypothesis. Yeah, but it's an aspect of absolute because they're, they're not doing things that juice them to use your word. I've totally assimilated that word into my vocabulary. They're not doing things that fill them up. And they're expected month on month, you know, weeks and weeks years on years to just keep getting on with it, which is obviously unsustainable and impossible.


Ann Wilson  31:58

Yeah, and This is. So one of the things that I've, it's I really would love to dive into this just the mental health, depression, the sense of what, What the Bleep is the point and that depletion of emotional and physical energy and the devastation of that. And one of the other thing that was just a little note on I've really also got that there, the greatest freedom is in deep vulnerability. And not because it's now the flavor of the month everybody, someone who vulnerability share your shit, all this sort of stuff. It's about there's a deep freedom when you know that we are all devastatingly vulnerable. We're all fragile, we all fucked up. We've all got these things, because when we can let go of those judgments, those shoulds Almost no, this is not about the overshare I have to tell everybody, you know, posting on social media, every little bits and pieces because quite frankly, a lot of that is just deep self intelligent bullshit. But there is a deep vulnerability when you can go Yeah, I've messed up or not almost face our own mortality, our own vulnerability and be okay with realizing we're not going to die we're not going to be struck down by lightning, we're not going to be up cost and the burden of steak or whatever they in this modern day we might have in the past. There there is huge freedom in that that you go and experiment with something and if it fails, it doesn't define be be okay to be devastated, mess up heartbroken, becoming circling back to the depletion of energy. So I haven't I know I don't tend to share this astronomical most have talking about money, but I thought five years ago I started rarely feeling my energy completely depleting and I could feel this edge of lifeforce. Well, I'm getting a little emotional. So let's talk about it. For me this energy is our lifeforce. It's this is the fuel behind out curiosity is the fuel behind our energy to want to be able to explore, taste experience depleting away and then the emotional and psychological well being of what's the point that sort of give up this rabbit and there was a direct link between my energy of brain fog and lethargy and then judgment going What's wrong with me? And then the spiral of call it depression. And I went and sought help from doctors and they would want to put me on antidepressants and all this this whole like this just numb you. Let's just connect instead of like, what what is the underlying side and I'm just deeply grateful that I've done enough. It's called personal curiosity work that low, medium, mental, emotional self and Oh, hang on, hang on. I can deal with a surface structure. But what is the aspect of the physical depletion but also emotional mental depletion, and I sought help I got connected with an amazing mental coach, whatever on a call who's still very much my life and it's just, and I realized that I was I was I had got deeply out of relationship with myself and life, that although I'd come on a certain journey, there was still devastating betrayal of me. What do I mean by that there was still a lot of things that I was not choosing freedom by living life on my terms when I didn't know what they were in half of the areas of my life and then I wasn't courageous enough to do them at whatever the cost. So this gap and I think the more we project Pray this calling of life at heart and don't follow the threads of curiosity with courage with so because not about not feeling afraid. It's not about there's there's almost this ferocity this ruthlessness that I think we truly want to live life fully. We have to be in service of life.


Tamryn Sherriffs  36:19

Yes, and it does feel terrifying.


Ann Wilson  36:21

 And I realize it was huge areas where I wasn't there was almost this little safety edge that I've got to this comfort side that was starting to numb and making aspect bage because they were part of my life where I was in service of certainty and safety and not in curiosity. And the more that's happened, I think, the more we're deeply in life, the more we betray our own lifeforce in that way by by choosing safety or certainty rather than curiosity and lifeforce. If we base the type of lifestyle shutting off. And that I think then starts manifesting in the what's the point? And so five years ago I was at that point I was at what is that point? What is what's the point of life? And I'm so grateful. There was enough lifeforce and curiosity for me to go and let's get curious about this very thing. Not numb or disconnect. And it took me on an extraordinary journey of Oh, I didn't expect this so great. I think this is also for us to be vulnerable, but also like, if we truly committed to live differently, be prepared to peel back some of the stuff that might be filled of shame and errors. And one of the errors I've realized from a curiosity area, my own identity as a woman sexuality, eroticism. What did that mean? I had no clue. I was terrified of that from society. A lot of people that might be money, there's these two boo errors. We been told not to go to. And I think if we want to live differently, it's we've got to be prepared to go to some of the places where we're really afraid, or where we've maybe been told we shouldn't go or they're dangerous, or they did, or they've, you know, just those places of deep judgment step by step moving at the pace of safety, because I think it's also important, we can't push ourselves off a cliff because it will just, it will just go into a psychotic breakdown. So what is the step safety but having this edge of curiosity, let me find out more, let me go there and I started reading of what's going on with my body, my own connection with life Do I even know who I am in different areas of my life and got deeply curious about that? And the more I did that, the more the energy came back, the more cognitive and it also meant I had I let go of things. I ended a 20 year marriage. I let go of other things in my life that I realized, not that they That they had they were no longer serving in what it used to be. So I think Curiosity has to also be reinforced with courage.


Tamryn Sherriffs  39:11

Yes, well, I think Firstly, I want to just really appreciate sharing what you've shared, especially that you added the line in no matter the cost. Because I think that it's an easy line to just drop in. But I want to really overlook because it's one thing to say, I'm going to be in pursuit of my freedom and my, you know, my desires and my passion, better only when it's easy only when it's convenient only when it fits in with everybody else. And so to say, no matter the cost is a really dramatic but important thing that you've added on there because that is actually what led you into the true following of your curiosity and as you say, ended up in all kinds of things unfolding in your A life that you wouldn't have anticipated.


Ann Wilson  40:02



Tamryn Sherriffs  40:03

I'm curious to hear a little bit more about what your insight is on this, no matter the cost. And if you have a kind of a metric, like the same way you were you're in it, you know, kind of what gives you energy and takes your energy. Are there some boundaries for your back? No matter the cost?


Ann Wilson  40:24

I love this question. Absolutely. And so this has also been stuck. So a lot of my practice over the last 10 years, but even the last five years with bringing more consciousness with it has been okay. Service of life service of me, actually, first of that curiosity, where am I going? Having support to help me when I'm just wanting to freeze run away god, this is not for me. And knowing that, you know, I think of this and having that it's slow enough for that experiment to get that data back. Okay. I'm just wanting to run for the hills or I've done Freezing or I'm wanting to please or please okay and then there's this this humility or this compassion to go okay at the core of any of those is is really a fear of death not physical death or sometimes it is physical death but almost some kind of emotional death fear of shame judgment not being seen enough whatever that story is and then go oh slowing down enough to be in that so firstly getting really clear that they go okay what's my next step which is the door that is making me want to run away from those that fear and moving at the pace of safety but not stuck. There getting so this comes right back to going What am I call threads of? I'm going through that door. I'm curious about it. I feel terrified about it. Yeah, practically want to vomit I want to run and I'll deal with the in the nervous system noise But then it's going to my job is also to make sure that my overall well being that my life is able to function at a practical physical level. Because there's no point me running through that door. If there's a lion, now this ad is going to shock me because that's going to be the end of that curiosity really fast. There's no point running through that door and burning through my finances and my investments. And then I'm broke on the other end and indeed, anxiety. So there's this side of also being ferocious or ruthless or discipline to whatever word to go, the end, it comes back to the end. So it comes back to really working on this beautiful in this relationship with my own logos and Eros. So there's many times when my logo is ruled and I think we are in a society where we are taught the logos rules, the logical be practical, be say Don't do this your first get your financial sorted What can you afford? This the should the shouldn't be safe service of certainty. So that's fine but that has been the thing that we've been told to celebrate and desire and life and just the messy rising force of creativity and wonder and curiosity in this big wonderful smoothing messy mass of life. Eros has been told Oh, that's quite dangerous shaming. Push that to the side. You know, maybe if there's anything left over, you can dabble a little bit there. You know, maybe get yourself a paint set or actually a coloring in book and you could do a little bit of curiosity there. And instead of going Hang on, okay, what. Yeah, exactly. So nothing wrong with that. But hey, throw out the lights every now and then. So the cursor is going here. What if I put eros first, but eros without logos is just a messy puddle. So when we you know we want to use the language of the divine feminine and masculine within each of us are our logical mind our creative, so much of my journey to really live differently and to bring my fullest juiciest wealthy life which is just gonna tell you, oh my god, I am loving life, my life just keeps expanding this curtain wall has been going, yes, this is what I desire. But how do we do it in a way that that generates life that isn't repeating. So I'm not. It's not. So it's the it's when I said what if whatever the cost is, it's whatever the cost is to my ego, to my nervous to the false fear. But it's always in deep service of life. So it's never at the cost of my sustainability of my life.


Tamryn Sherriffs  45:00

Yes that's such an important truth it's like if you know my if anyone was watching you could see my brain turning into one of those emojis to having like an explosion at the top of my head because often time particularly in a community of people who value living life differently and freedom you see someone either on the one side or the other they have rejected the logic that you know if they reject all things about society that are constraining usually oftentimes what goes with it is the financial security etc. Oh, like you said the maybe in the more common the people who haven't been prepared to babble in their desire and the freedom and the curiosity, then they stay strictly in the these are the cut lines. I've got a coloring. It is the rarest thing but the actual pathway


Ann Wilson  45:59

Yeah. So let me give you an example a real practical example which was quite recently so for years, I've just had this desire of wanting to have a place in the bush in in big deep with wildlife. And the low the low glass the logical side of me said the practical scientists. Yes, yes. Ann that's nice, you know, but especially the investor in me it's not really an asset. It's got a nice you know, go on satiate that desire by going on a few bush holidays every year. And you know, I did and I am part of my business I brought in taking people on safari so I get it I always go how to how to how can I have that and get it paid for itself to the good quality questions? Yeah, I got I got, you know, to pay for my for my wanderlust. But I would not I would sit for hours when I called my bush porn. I would look on the internet and different lodges to buy that that was that was bye bye bye My late night. porn was looking at these pages. And eventually, as I started just dropping and said, you know, and this has been a desire for a long time, let's take this one step further. So I think following curiosity and also allowing it to be a step by step process, knowing that I don't have to know the full answer, I don't have to have the full picture. Before I take the next step. This has also been really important looping back to letting the freedom to change our mind, the freedom to just get bit more information. And so I went you know, let's get some more information. I'm actually tired of the porn. Let's let's get into the game. And let's go look at an area so I flew up to the area I wanted to be in I sussed out that place that I thought I should, and I did a bit of a sensible thing to do maybe a wildlife estate with this because, you know, what am I Oh, that would be more sensible, whatever. I did that whole story, and I looked at some stuff, but there was this part of the logic boxes exactly, but this time leaving space so this is the next key thing I've realized I need to leave space in time in energy for magic for wonder for curiosity. So I can take the logical sides but just just in case because actually most of the fun stuff in my life has come in that gap, none of the stuff that I planned. So I went up I looked at various pieces and they were nice enough, but there was I had just it wasn't even on the viewing there was a specific place which was deep in the Kruger Park. There was nothing logical about it was I go, Okay, you go to the Big Five country far away from anybody else. To Hell, let's just go at it was just a sequence of serendipitous events and circumstances that led to being available got to see it wasn't on the plat. Literally, I saw this place and just my heart My whole body went, yes, this is it. And my logical part quit. So you know, so I wasn't meant to slow down and let both parties have a say not to shame one or the other, they can have their dialogue both have a say. And I went off. And so now it started the process. So this is the practical side that I've learned one to just slow down enough so that both parts of me can have a say. And I'll sit and go, Okay, what it what's exciting about this, let that part of me because that part of me wants to get its words out, then I go, Okay. Let's look at how could we make this happen? What's going what's going to be implication financially? What information do we need to know? To be able to make a decision so I realized I needed to contact and arctica was doing renovations and building in the middle of the bush is very different from the city. So then I let my curiosity to go I need this information and to delink both go Okay, that's actually going to calm down my nervous system and not feel that I can't trust my curiosity or my Desire because I think often we're terrified to follow curiosity desire because we think it's just going to take us into this oblivion. So when I could go Okay, we're not saying no, but we're just saying this is the information we need to make that decision. So I pulled all this information together had the bits and pieces now I had my criteria. I said, Okay, great. If this is gonna happen, this is my max price that one, that's what I could do. And then that curiosity for me felt heard. So we put the offer in and it got turned down. And I love conservative. I can remember I got the certification, and this part of me the desire that the Eros just want it. Okay, well, come on. We gotta have it like, oh, and then it was like, slow down. Yeah.


Tamryn Sherriffs  50:50

I can simply relate to that character.


Ann Wilson  50:55

Yeah, and so I've really gone I've had to learn how to slow myself down. Listen to that not shame it go You silly. You're stupid you just going to devastate us and take us to living on a park bench? If we listen to you go cool. Yeah, you really want that. And let's slow down. Let's just go back to the numbers. We've done our numbers we know this is and then also celebrate, go, Hey, I'm somebody I have talked with myself, like third person, I'll go. And how cool is this? We got an airplane. We took out curiosity one step further. We've learned so much information that we would never have known if we hadn't gone out there found this now I know way more about this desire than I knew. Without taking that step. I now know that actually, I want to be in an open system. Big Five paces, actually, who knew but actually, I'm dying to have another innovation project. This is such great information to know in this experiment, and maybe this step wasn't to get that pace but it was to know this. Now I'm so much further on this curiosity three than I was So taking stock of what have I gained is that information, and then also led me to pacify that go, oh, it wasn't a waste. It's not saying I can't have I'm not going back to having to serve bush porn. You know, I'm now at this point. And I went, and I really should we've done our numbers, we've gone down this, that's just what it is, there will be another thing, but now we much much further down the pathway. So if somebody is, you know, curious about small, tiny house living or whatever, what's the next sort of step to get that information? And so I left it there and I just said, well, the offer is there, and I went off to Thailand, and I was in northern Thailand. And next minute, I went to the cafe where I could get some Wi Fi and water pops through, say, the sellers have come back. They would like they will accept your offer now. You know, and sometimes there is that space because I think sometimes when we doubt ourselves and we doubt this relationship between our own logos and eros, they might not have come back but I was okay with whatever that result is because I could celebrate that I had not betrayed either side of myself and so I did do a little experiment I went okay, now I'm in the back end of time and I have to redo an offer because I needed me to sign this okay, how the hell do I do this I Northern Thailand. So I said, Okay, if this is easy, so this is where the easy part. I said, if this is easy for me to find a place where I could print sign scan, fax, send this thing back. Great. If not, I'm not gonna love it because I've reconciled the experiment and I've got the data. And that was a celebration for me that I knew myself move through this process. That to me was the greatest joy. Anyway, I withdraw the corner there was one of those back end funny little scared facts things long story short side, the author And here are amazing adventures unfolding. I've got this beautiful place in the Burj and I'm renovating all sorts of other wonders have come there. But for me, the greatest celebration that I really want to share was, I got an A more and more getting to feel what being in beautiful relationship between my logos and my arrows is in service of each other. And I think at the end of the day, our life living differently, is coming back to only we can give ourselves permission, and how do we bring our logos and our Eros into a beautiful, intimate relationship where they can trust each other and when they working in harmony, that's when we know we've got our own back. And that is I think, when we can come to life with energy and flow and curiosity and safety.


Tamryn Sherriffs  54:48

You just used the word that I was about to ask you about because for me the major theme that emerged out of hearing that spectacular story is so Trust, and maybe this is the last theme that we can bring this, this recording to a close on is that you have to really trust for you to have said, Okay, well sorry, that's my upper limit. And let you're kind of excited, passionate in a child just have to let go of the dream of their profiles took an enormous amount of self trust over the boundary that you had drawn. And in fact that almost everything we've spoken about so far today has been about trust, trusting that that is what you're curious about, trusting that the cost of this exercise is that you prepared to let this thing go. So have you got any kind of closing words for us around how to trust because I think we are deeply socialized out of self trust should be the way the school systems work, and it's why I've got this whole project around Not having my children experience that as far as I can control it, controlling air quotes. And tell us a bit about your thoughts on that.


Ann Wilson  56:11

Yeah, and I think this is at, a part of me believes that almost our greatest life journey is this journey to wholeness of coming to truly understand that we are the only ones that can give ourselves permission. So we stopped seeking permission as you as you say, the school system was socialized into somebody else was give us permission, also, including somebody else was taking responsibility for our joy, our happiness, our health, our well being. We try and outsource that, which is the most thing that comes back to that devastation of self betrayal. Because it, it just can't be so out of sync of life and I think that is part of the devastation we're seeing and in mental health and depression and disassociation of like, what's the point of any of it all. But when we come back to really going, I am the only one who is responsible for my pleasure, my joy, my heartbreak my whole was extraordinary lived experience with a deep again, for me, I'm going to use these words dangerous ruthlessness that can seem. So often we can use the words, you're going to be dangerous in our life, but dangerous, not to others not just dangerous in terms of our choice to be alive and awake. And we call us Custom Auto writes about being ruthless and ruthless is not about again, some of these words can feel like being horrible, being nice to others. It's about this ruthlessness and service of life and character and when we truly are in that it's not greedy scarcity is actually degenerative. So I think it starts with that curiosity. And then having this commitment to life, and knowing that life is not about us, when we can let go, that that thing hasn't happened. It has has no meaning about who we are our worthiness about life, but we are about life, we are in service of it. So it's almost a humility of just get over that. Because we really don't matter at the end of the day. We too, will just become another dust speck. And so I think there's this dropping down into that humility and letting go of that hubris of were important to any of those signs. But then as the slowly dancing of can we slow down enough to just listen to us and know that we are the only ones at the end of the day that can have our own back? And learning what does that mean? And I don't I don't think I've really answered your question, but at the end of the day, the moment I slow down, go, am I doing the things are in service of me the practical looking after my money getting those assets in place, not depleting my energy, not abusing them squandering my time. How do I use those things? Then am I listening to my desires, but noticing the difference between the two year old me having a tantrum versus the true desire, and that's also discernment. Sometimes I don't get that pipe, right. And it's building this internal trust relationship. And I think for women, we've deeply been indoctrinated to so much of that logo, or that permission piece, or that framework that we've been told that needs to come from the Father, the partner, the society, the whatever, when it comes to money stuff, we shouldn't do that. And there's also been deep shaming of the desire. So I think we also haven't learned how to step up and understand what's it Powered creativity and lifeforce. And so because we don't fully have our own back, and we've never really been taught how to listen to it, people just end up in this following what they think of the desires fed from an external validation coming right back to from whence to come. And I know that if I start doing something to please appease perform, it's never going to be in service of me. And I'm not going to have my own back. I'm going to self betray. So if there's a if I start following anything that is seeking external validation of my worthiness, I'm pretty much guaranteed is going to end up in a pretty messy bloody mess. I can do this.


Tamryn Sherriffs  1:00:53

And that's the indicator.


Ann Wilson  1:00:55

And then that's it. That's a call to answer that question. When I win. I know that I've got my own back because when I can slow down enough go, am I wanting to is this curiosity coming out of wanting to experience life and express life, I could say worthiness enoughness or to try and validate it. And when I come from that internal locus that then slow down enough to have that dialogue, then I know I've got my own back and I know I'm safe.


Tamryn Sherriffs  1:01:26

Yes, and the more you do that, the more you can lean into that and the more that you can trust it, then it becomes a self fulfilling layer upon layer of confidence really.


Ann Wilson  1:01:36

And it is a muscle it is a muscle and I also because that coming back to that experimentation, I, you know, I can I know that I'm going to get it wrong. But I don't put I just go, Oh, I'm just going to get data that I can then adjust. Yeah, you know, so for an example, I've decided to venture into the world of online dating in a time of color. Bit and I'm announcing this terrifies me. And I'm not going I have no I mean, I haven't dated since Well, I don't think I've ever dated. I mean, I have no idea what I'm doing. It terrifies me talk about an experiment. And I'm just like, oh my god, am I gonna try myself? What's gonna be the first to laugh at the fear? And then I go, okay, slow down. How do we experiment in a way that will get picked? up I know, I'm going to do all of those things, hide rotten, please repeat whatever they should is, but I'm going to not take too seriously. And when I do, that's also okay. But I'm going to experiment.


Tamryn Sherriffs  1:02:51

And observe, because that's, that's almost a formula that I've noticed. So you've talked about paying attention to observing slowing down Observing and then adjusting, which is really the essence of an experiment. And that's just a good luck. I'm gonna have to get the juicy details on that as that unfolds. online dating. I've had since an online dating and it's a huge fun adventure. So but during a time of COVID I don't even know what that ficks law


Ann Wilson  1:03:25

That felt much safer. Because I could take Vegas and Im sorry, lockdown. Yeah. But you're making I think this last step in terms of this relationship of can we trust ourselves is I've gone. When I'm starting to feel like self betrayal or fear. I just go take a smaller Step. Take a smaller step. what's what's that next step to go at the speed of safety, but not at the speed of certainty? Different things?


Tamryn Sherriffs  1:03:57

Absolutely. And that's beautiful. I think, you know, For those who have listened in on our fabulously winding and incredibly important, deep discussion of what it means to be alive to navigate our life differently, and can really have missed the significance of how much important work that you've put out, because you've done this other work that we've been speaking about, and I really just want to take a moment to appreciate it there. And as I mentioned before, and if you haven't met and before, I'm going to make sure that you can join her world out there'll be a link in the show notes. Because Ann's work has been life changing not only to me, but to thousands and thousands and thousands of people around the world events, books, a powerful online courses. And I just want to take a moment to appreciate that the others parallel work and as you mentioned earlier, that you don't normally talk about this parallel part of yourself of how you show up every day how you've chosen to make your decisions. And all of this important thinking has been in service of putting this incredible body of work and the wealth chef and the community together and it's been such a privilege to hear how you've done that from a from a choosing to live differently in both freedom in your life going to view I'm so grateful that you've been able to share that with us.


Ann Wilson  1:05:32

Thank you so much and yeah, you really gonna entities and I think you're looping back to financial empowerment, financial well being. I think I really, I knew for me that until I had that part sorted. These other aspects of safety of curiosity could never happen and I see so many people. And this is why it is it's this deep drive for me and I do call myself a financial activist, but rarely I'm an activist for life. I'm an activist for differently, I'm an activist, for what enables us to fully be who we are, and live this life with consciousness to be awake, and with courage and to have our own backs and be true because I truly believe will consume better how our relationship with the earth live, everything ships when we come from that place of deep safety from within ourselves and deep enoughness and without financial frameworks, and if we're living in a place of fear, anxiety and stress of burning up our life force on that shit and stuck in the traffic and TV, we never get to do that. And so while I, you know, I love for myself the exploring all these other elements, I guess that has become my theme of service because I do believe it's one of them. Most foundational elements, and it's the element that prevents most people even be able to start exploring so many of these other aspects of life.


Tamryn Sherriffs  1:07:13

And I fully agree which is why every time you do have your your annual opening of your program in my community, I direct people there because it's, it's become a truth for me too, is that I can't have the freedom to explore all of these things that fascinate me without consistently working on what is going to sustain myself and my family. And that's the same way everybody be. So for somebody unique like you because not you find somebody who teaches about finance, who ignores the rest of why you're doing it. And what I just love and this conversation we've had an artist illustrated so beautifully is that actually your motivation So that you can go and grab one wild, crazy, juicy thing called law. And not because it's a means to an end or you like geeking out on numbers. And if you do, that's fine, too. But that's not the point. The point is, in order to be present with life, you need to not be worried about how you're going to pay your rent.


Ann Wilson  1:08:21

Absolutely. That's the foundation.


Tamryn Sherriffs  1:08:24

Absolutely. And I just think that's a beautiful place to to bring our conversation to a close on because somebody might think that you're one or the other. And I think we've tied that together so beautifully. You don't have to be the logical step follower in the system. Or the crazy, flamboyant desire chasing hippie artist, that in fact, you can marry the two and you use the word cable earlier, you know, these different threads are actually woven to woven together and that's Been even, you know, we've spoken many, many times and I've listened to a lot of your content. But every time we talk, I get another kind of layer of epiphany or understanding and there's been so many that have come out of this chatter. I just want to appreciate that and say thanks.


Ann Wilson  1:09:15

Well back at you and your whole, you know, different community and fire and what you do in the world. Yeah, and it's just a deep joy to call you, friend and fellow life Explorer. I think it's just so great to find the fellow people who are deeply curious and then prepared to take a stand for life, no matter the cost. And you do that.


Tamryn Sherriffs  1:09:43

Thank you, my darling go well, it's been such a pleasure to chat. Bye.


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